Thread Name: How scarce is The Alice, anyway? From: Scot Kamins <kamins@removed> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:29:47 -0700 I note with some amusement that an unjacketed, damaged copy of Alice's Adventures went for over $100 on eBay. I was struck by this, not only because that particular copy looked like it had been the object of a difference of opinion over ownership between two pitbull puppies, but because it's the 4th or 5th copy that sold on eBay in the last 18 months or so. (Would somebody who tracks the actual sales records -- Amy or Pete perhaps -- please post the dates, condition, and prices? ) It brings up the question of how scarce - it certainly isn't rare by any means - this piece actually is. Much scarcer, obvious at least to me, are any VG/VG copies of B&L titles, or any DJ'd copies of Maltese Falcon firsts, or ANY DJ'd copies of Gatsby. I mean, something is worth what somebody will pay for it (as Henry has pointed out in a previous discussion). But is a chewed up copy what is becoming nearly a commonplace really worth over a hundred smackers without its DJ? All right, it's not as common as Tono Bungay, but still... ------------------------------------- From: Amy <dbapaper@removed> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:29:04 -0400 According to my records, four Alices have sold on ebay in the past year (condition is an educated guess): 1. Sept. 24 -- VG/VG, acetate DJ -- $431.00 2. Dec. 12 -- G/No (Pastedown on cover) -- $205.00 3. Feb. 5 -- NF/VG, acetate DJ -- $667.00 4. June 15 -- G/No -- $107.50 I don't know what the numbers says about scarcity. As with other prized MLs, though, it's clear that condition counts for a lot. ------------------------------------- From: GOODBOOKS@removed> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:48:39 -0700 (PDT) To Amy: I wish to thank you for the ebay Alice prices realized information...That goes right into m ML file. ------------------------------------- From: Sharon Biederman <sbiederm@removed> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:54:35 -0400 (EDT) There have been at least two other copies on ebay prior to those in this past year. One was in October of 1999; the date for the other escapes me. That's 6 so far. I agree with Amy that condition, especially with regard to the acetate jacket, has been the biggest factor in prices realized; however as more and more collectors acquire an Alice, the bidding competition will slow and should result in decreased prices. My recollection is that the two higher priced copies (from Sept and February) were in almost identical condition. ------------------------------------- From: SGottlieb@removed> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:09:06 EDT no, I think I got the one at 431. Acetate is somewhat misfolded. ------------------------------------- From: j b krygier <jbkrygie@removed> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:24:29 -0400 There have been several discussions on ModLib about the relative scarcity of various ML titles, with the number of times titles show up for sale on eBay used as evidence for certain titles being more or less scarce than noted by Henry's Guide or the prevailing collective wisdom of ML collectors. I am assuming that the value of the ML Illustrated Alice in Wonderland (despite condition) is driven up by the fact that it may not have been regularly available (only as a promotional item or Book Club dividend). I don't know if this is an actual fact or supposition. It does, however, seem odd that 6 copies would appear on eBay in the last year or two - all starting at a low price by folks who didn't seem aware that the book was worth much. On the other hand, Carroll is certainly a very collectable author and eBay sellers may see an illustrated edition of Alice as something that will sell (more than, say, a copy of Rumer Godden or Knut Hamsun). So how good of a ML scarcity gauge is eBay? Are we seeing scarce MLs on eBay because it is becoming known as a good place to sell MLs? Or is eBay a good random 'sample' of the relative numbers of different ML titles and editions out there? ------------------------------------- From: Scot Kamins <kamins@removed> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:57:55 -0700 You've raised a lot of great issues here and I'd like to respond to this one. Seems to me that eBay is a pretty good giant yard sale. It has a huge number of everything up for grabs all the time. So I'm betting it's a pretty good random sample of EVERYTHING that's out there, ML titles included. This becomes more true over time as more people from all over the place put everything in the cellar and attic up for bids. At the same time, I do NOT believe that the bidding represents true value because the number of people who bid on any one item is too small. Also I think that "bidding" is a different phenomenon from "buying." People get caught up in bidding -- it becomes an ego thing for some, a "fun of bidding" for others. I suspect that folks will pay more at auction than they would in a retial store. This is why I tend to use eSnipe.com to place my bids at the last second; I make a decision way in advance of the close of an auction about how much I'm willing to pay for a book, register that amount at eSnipe which automatically places a last-second bid for me [win or lose], and I try not to look back until the auction ends. ------------------------------------- From: "Gordon Neavill" <aa3401@removed> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:54:42 -0400 I reported the discovery of the Illustrated ML edition of Alice in Wonderland in MLS #26 in October 1993. Alice and Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass with the Tenniel illustrations colored by Fritz Kredel were originally intended for the Illustrated ML, then sold instead to the Book-of-the-Month Club in 1946 for use as a dividend. Tales of Edgar Allan Poe illustrated by Fritz Eichenberg, originally planned for the Illustrated ML, also ended up instead as a BOMC dividend. Ironically, these were the only Illustrated ML titles that ever returned a profit! (Harry Abrams, the art editor for the Illustrated ML, was also the BOMC advertising and production manager. He conceived the Illustrated ML, convinced Cerf and Klopfer to go ahead with it, and remained closely involved with the series. He later became a major art book publisher.) In 1947 Abrams offered Cerf and Klopfer 3,010 unbound copies of Alice in Wonderland that remained in the BOMC warehouse with the suggestion that they could be used in the Illustrated ML. The last four regularly published Illustrated ML titles had been published in 1946. The unbound copies were an inch taller than the Illustrated ML format, the title page gave the publisher as Random House, and pp. 39-62 were missing! Using them as Abrams proposed required not only binding the sheets and creating a clear acetate jacket but trimming the sheets to the Illustrated format, printing 3,000 copies or so of the 24 missing pages, and cutting off the tp with the Random House imprint and gluing a newly printed Illustrated ML tp to the stub. The ML's printer and binder indicated that the result would be untidy and not worth the trouble, but Cerf and Klopfer figured they could turn a small profit on the deal and decided to go ahead. The result was indeed untidy: the page numerals are located at the foot of the pages, and several page numerals were partially cut off when the sheets were trimmed--at least in the copies I've examined. How scarce is the Illustrated Alice? We can start with the 3,010 copies Random House acquired from the Book of the Month Club. Allowing for spoilage, the number of copies actually bound and published in the Illustrated ML format was probably slightly less than 3,000. No one knows how many of those copies survive. An unknown number of copies appear to have been sold to the Philco Corp. for distribution at its national convention in January 1948 (see the Philco slipcase on www.dogeared.com); I expect the remaining copies were offered mainly to department stores. The Illustrated Alice is not a ghost title (if it exists it ain't a ghost) but it was a one-shot deal, published after new titles were no longer being added to the Illustrated ML, with the intention of turning a quick profit. It wasn't listed in ML catalogs, and if things went as Cerf and Klopfer hoped they probably disposed of their 3,000 copies within a few months. The Illustrated Alice is far and away the scarcest ML title. I can't think of any other ML title sent out into the world in so few copies. In comparison, the Illustrated Holy Bible had a first printing of 18,000 copies and a second printing of 6,000 copies. Shakespeare's Tragedies and Comedies had single printings of 11,000 copies each in the Illustrated series. Most regular ML titles had first printings of at least 5,000 copies. Still, 3,000 copies is a lot of books; many university press titles are published today in editions of less than 1,000 copies. If a significant portion of them were distributed at a convention, there's a good possibility that a lot of them were thrown away. Many copies were probably given to children, and children's books, like cookbooks and textbooks, have a lower survival rate than most other books. They tend to be used rather than shelved unread or preserved as icons; a lot of them are literally used up. It's difficult to estimate how many of the copies survive. Fewer, probably, than most books published in editions of 3,000 copies. My guess, which is no better than anyone else's, is that there are probably several hundred copies in existence--enough, if only we could locate them and get them on the market, for every serious ML collector to have a copy of his or her own. ------------------------------------- From: Scot Kamins <kamins@removed> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:07:13 -0700 Thanks for posting your wonderfully detailed article. It sheds a lot of light on a topic many of us have been wondering about. The Illustrated Alice is far and away the scarcest ML title. I can't think of any other ML title sent out into the world in so few copies. In comparison, the Illustrated Holy Bible had a first printing of 18,000 copies and a second printing of 6,000 copies. I find it fascinating that, while six Alices in at least two binding styles have appeared in the last 18 months, only one illustrated bible (to my memory) has appeared. I guess people don't part with them. ------------------------------------- From: "Gordon Neavill" <aa3401@removed> Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:55:22 -0400 I think you're right about Bibles--people just don't seem to part with them. The only copy of the second printing I've ever seen is in Special Collections at the University of California, Los Angeles. One of the highlights of my ML collecting was the day I found TWO copies of the first printing at John Zubal's bookstore in Cleveland. Both were in slipcases, though one copy turned out to be defective (it was missing a gathering). I don't expect to repeat that experience anytime soon. ------------------------------------- From: HTatML@removed> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:26:21 EDT I used to collect Egyptian stamps and there was one with a special surcharge which was catalogued at over 100 pounds. (This was some 25 years ago). Then, my dealer, a specialist in Egyptian stamps, (and in the habit of going to Egypt every few years) discovered a whole drawer of of these surcharged stamps. What did he do? He gave many away to his good customers. He told other dealers the story and gradually let them out on the market at five pounds each. I am waiting for my drawer full of Alices! < Remaining material moved to thread "Inappropriate comments" > -------------------------------------